1. Movement through difficult terrain
2. The random charge distance
3. Character members of squads and challenges (like the EC in 3rd
edition Joel)
4. Lots of Universal Special rules
5. Melee weapons now have AP values
6. Movement and shooting
7. Target Priority based on the direction of fire
8. The charge and Overwatch fire from the unit charged
9. Falling Back
10. Vehicle damage, movement and disembarkation
11. Flying abilities of certain models
12. Fliers in general... lots of rules on this
13. Psychic Powers
14. Warlords
15. Terrain (living, mysterious, and purchasable)
16. Grenades and using it on MCs and walkers.
17. Missions, primary objectives, and secondary objectives.
18. Change to reserves.
16. Grenades and using it on MCs and walkers.
17. Missions, primary objectives, and secondary objectives.
18. Change to reserves.
***AND ONE MORE THING***
Black Templars were absolutely screwed by 6th edition. Might be time to
put those guys away until a new codex comes out. Out of all of the armies they
actually received a dearth of benefits from the new rules set. This leads me to
believe BT may be one of the first codie (plural for codex) put out.
Lost "Accept any challenge no matter the odds" - reroll all
misses in close combat
Gained Rage in its place - extra attack on the charge
No character models in squads... no character benefits of course.
No fliers
Terminators may live longer because of melee AP values.
No more wounds for having fearless models in close combat... means no
wounds for failing combat.
...and that's all folks. You see... Fuct! These guys are going to be dominated. Time to
go back to orks or start a new project.
I still haven't recieved the book. I ordered it from GW online on the first pre order day because I also needed a new figure case. Had I not needed the case I probably would have picked it up at tower of games.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I went with GW direct and I feel tremendously let down. Essentially I handed them extra money by ordering directly from them at full price instead of a second party and I don't get the product in hand until more than a week after release.
According to tracking, which became available only today, it should be here today, tomorrow, or Monday. This is definately the last time I order any new release direct from GW.
I will definately reply to any and all when I have book in hand and eyes on print.
The IG and Black Templars will soon taste defeat in a matter of hours...
ReplyDeleteHahaha... unfortunately for you foul xenos, the Emperor's fury will rain down on you!!!
ReplyDeleteYour 'Emperor' of which you speak of is irrelevant... the galaxy knelt before us once, and it will do so again...
ReplyDeleteI put together a decent build of Templars. It's a little off the reservation from what I normally use... never thought I'd be taking an assault squad again, but I need the speed. After the cumpulsory HQ and Troop choices (Vanilla) (oh, and Grymm the Dreadnought), I put a chaplain in a jump pack and gave him terminator honors... that makes for 7 attacks on the charge, just from him! On the charge the whole squad rolls 39 attacks and rerolls misses (Litany of Hate). From there I'm looking at a full squad of Assault Terminators and of course the LRC to drive them around in. Not many models for 1500 points ;(
ReplyDeleteI didn't use the build I mentioned today but I will tell you I got my arse stomped. 750BT + 750IG vs 1500 Necrons.
ReplyDeleteResult = Gauss Flayer Death... need I say more.
BT was tabled. IG held out to the end, mostly routed.
9 - 7 VP win goes to Necrons.
I finally got the book and I have to say it is very much a mixed bag. Before we delve into everything I guess we should only make a few points at a time and then move on the next set of stuff. So I will start with number 1-3.
ReplyDelete1) Moving through difficult terrain: What? I didn’t see any change there.
2) Random assaults distances: It seems like an unnecessary change but not a terrible one. The average assault distance will still be about 6 inches and with fleet maybe even better because of the reroll opportunity, which is a plus for tyranids, eldar, dark eldar and all of those speedy groups. Overall assaults have taken a hit but we will talk about that as we move down the list.
3) Character challenges: Hate it! Hate it so much. Way too unbalanced for a game where there is such a high degree of variability between the different armies. For example: Autarch vs. Mega-armored Warboss… wait not even a warboss lets go ‘ard Nob with a powerklaw. Autarch has to do 2 wounds to a 4+ save nob while the nob has to do 1 wound to my feeble autarch to instant kill. Lets compare point investments here… autarch 110ish, nob 45ish… hmmm… wait… what?
Another thing that bothers me is the all-encompassing degree with which the challenge system works because it’s not just for the leaders it is for every unique model in the unit. The idea of a Space Marine captain calling out a IG sergeant is ridiculous. Even the idea of two sergeants calling each other out seems excessive and diminishes the truly great challenges that this mechanic really should be about. If this mechanic does deserve to be in the rules it should be limited to only the unique characters that way it’s not a bother to me because I think the prebuilt unique characters are bullshit anyway.
Lastly, to punish a model for refusing the challenge because they are going to get their asses handed to them just seems to add insult to injury. It’s a bad mechanic and should be excluded altogether. If the point of this absurd mechanic is to make me care about the special people in my army then maybe we should head back toward 3rd edition and allow for way more customization of the special characters. Hell let me build my own unique character. That would make me invest way more than this silly rule.
I may have changed my mind on fleet because it may actually shorten the average charge distance over 5th edition where you could run and then assault. More math is needed to figure out its impact.
DeleteGood rant Joel... I think I commented on the 'Gauss Flayer Death' post with a bunch of other stuff that I need to drag over to this post.
ReplyDeleteThe part about difficult terrain was how it plays in with assaults and falling back. It plays a much larger roll now. Ha! no pun intended. I wrote up a whole page of how difficult terrain could have an effect.
I love the random assault rolls because $hit does happen in war and nothing is a sure thing especially when it comes to CQB.
Totally agree with the challenge deal. A Spacemarine SGT challenged by an IG SGT is ludicrous. Sure, there are some bad ass (non-spacemarine) humans in the galaxy that may have some neat toys or combat styles but this would normally be like Nick's Dodge Ares up against an M1A1 Abram tank. It does prolong hand to hand combat though and gives a low melee capable unit a chance to catch its breath. Say, my God Character charges into combat and could slay the entire unit in a round has to respond to a challenge by the units leader first. That buys you 2 rounds.
"Hell let me build my own unique character." Absolutely!!!!!!!!!
I lied one more post.
DeletePlease post the difficult terrain thoughts because I really don't see anything about it that is terribly different. In fact the mechanic of rolling the extra die and then taking the two lowest makes no sense at all because you are still going just as likely to get a 7 between any two dice in the roll anyway. So taking away the highest is simply a punishment in imagination not reality.
Good point on the challenges.
Last post before bed. I know I seem long winded but this is my way of processing the rules.
ReplyDelete4) Lots of USR: I think that this is pretty standard. They seem to do this with every edition where they add a bunch more USR then use them for the first couple of codices then they get bored with them and create a few more unique rules for one army then the same author writes another codex and copies the idea. Then when 7th edition comes out we will have a few more USR to get all of the copied rules between the codices standardized.
On the USR changes: Snipers got better with precision shot (challenge me will you?), rage got better as you don’t have to charge closest enemy, fearless is better because of the changes to assaults, Acute Senses makes absolutely no sense for the what the rule actually does, Skilled rider is actually useful now, and Gets Hot effects vehicles now which I really don’t understand the concept other than to piss on plasma toting vehicles.
On New USRs: I don’t get the point of Hammer of Wrath attack, Strafing run seems like it will be cool, Blind sounds scary but will probably be underutilized for a long time, It Will Not Die and Rampage seems like a tyranid traits that others are going to get now.
5) AP values for melee weapons: For the vast majority of weapons and units it really doesn’t matter much but 2+ saves got a shit ton better. Mega armor, Terminators and Carnifexes just got really scary. Plasma, Lascannons, snipers, and rending are going to be in high demand.
Lets count the close combat weapons that the Eldar have to get through 2+ armor…. Scorpion exarch power claw. Add in the ridiculous challenge system and guess who is never going to get to use it? Hmmm I wonder …. But… harlequins with rending might work for a one assault phase at 150% of the cost of scorpions. Lucky me.
6) Movement and shooting: Wow… just wow… with the changes to rapid fire a plain 10 man squad of imperial guardsmen can now move their normal move fire their weapons up to their maximum distance. Add in Fire Fire Fire order and you have 18 shots, 9 hit, 3 wounds, 1 dead black templar at essentially 30” (6+24) x2 for the squads that are shooting at them x2 again for the two turns they are running at my gunline that is 4 dead black templars. Then they get close enough to assault at 18” away (6+12) with fire fire fire that is 28 shots, 14 hit, 5 wound, 2 dead black Templars x2 for the two squads firing at them then overwatch comes in with 19 shots, 3 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead space marine.
Between regular shooting and overwatch a 9 man lasgun squad and 1 sergeant can pump out 47 shots in one turn. Add it up that is 8-9 dead Black Templars before (hell, if) they hit my gunline. Then there is the best part … the only draw back to rapid fire weapons is that I can’t assault and get shot before doing so… damn.. what am I to do? I think I will just keep shooting.
Imagine rapid fire on something that can actually hit and has a good strength; gauss flayer death indeed. I don’t like the change at all. Seems very broken and the advantage to assault weapons is essentially meaningless now.
Snap shot is essentially meaningless with a 17% chance to hit; although now I won’t feel bad about moving my infantry squads with heavy weapons because I can still roll dice pointlessly.
I like being able to move some models in a squad and not others and still have those that did not move count as stationary still may be helpful in many cases especially to avoid focus fire.
Focused fire is a tricky idea for me to wrap my head but I think it is really going to hurt low save horde armies like IG combined squads, boyz herdz, and gaunts.
Wow! Your sarcasm is funny as hell... Keep going!
ReplyDelete7) Target Priority based on direction of fire: I assume you mean removing casualties based on the direction of fire. It matters now how you position your models within a squad and it makes sense with the addition of the move some of your unit rules but it really doesn’t go with the challenges system. The rules seem to focus on the cinematic aspects of the battle and the challenge system wants the all powerful leader. So removing casualties from the front means that your leaders will have to scurry at the middle/back of the line. That is not very awe inspiring or cinematic.
ReplyDeleteThe “look out, sir” rule is a work around to get your leader models up front but it’s not very effective. In fact when you get down to it only encourages your character models to attempt to be the only one in the squad remaining. I will probably place the leaders in the middle of the squads and when it comes down to taking saves for my characters I will try look out, sir with the ones from the back.
The real catch to this is what it does to charging.
8) The charge and overwatch: assaults got majorly downgraded in this edition because of not just overwatch but also removing casualties from the front. It works out differently for the different groups so lets look at a couple of examples.
Exhibit A) 10 man space marine squad assaults a line of 20 ork boys. 20 ork slugga choppas boyz that is 20 overwatch shots that hit lets round up and say 4 times on average, wound 2 times, and kill 1 space marine. In my experience when there are charges they are never in a straight line but instead there are one to three models up front and everyone else is trailing behind. So in this case the space marine squad will lose 1 model so maybe but not likely lose between ½ inch and 1 inch on the charge. So to maintain the 6” charge from the previous edition they will have to roll a 7 the most likely outcome.
Exhibit B) 10 termagant squad assaults a line of 10 dire avengers. That is 20 overwatch shots that hit 4 times, wound 3 times (rounding up), and kill 3 times. So using the same experience where there are one to three models up front and everyone else is trailing behind the termagants just lost 3 models and probably 1 to 2 inches on their charge roll because of the one inch diameter of the base size plus about an inch spacing between the ranks. So in this case the termagants will need at least 8” to maintain the 6” charge from the previous edition which is less likely.
Ah, but you may say hey the termagants have fleet so they can reroll both or one of the charge distances dice. Yes, indeed that is correct, but they are using the rule not as an advantage but as a way to keep these armies from getting screwed on the charge only some of the time instead of all of the time. In fact I would say that fleet is worse this edition than last because the average assault distance in 5th for a fleeting infantry was about 15” (6+3+6) in this edition it is 13” (6+7).
9) Falling back: Aside from them taking out the no retreat rule I don’t see much change here. Post your thoughts, Madwars.
Man Joel.. you really got through the book fast! I'm still trying to figure out, or just memorize fliers and psyker powers. Overall, sounds like you are a bit dissatisfied. You should totally get a game in!
ReplyDeleteSorry for not tag teaming you on the review. I'm still reeling from my defeat to Necrons. I updated the Gauss Flayer Death post with some images so you can see the battle field disposition.
Since the battle all of my time has been devoted to rebuilding Templars. My fingers are already horribly cut up from putting together a new batch of terminators. 5 down 5 to go and then I'm moving to the LRC.
Ugh... the Slaan God is calling.
I haven't played yet so I can't really say I am unhappy just very unsure of how it all fits together. I do know that it will be fun at first as we figure it out.
DeleteI'll be adding a few things to the general posts to continue the rules summary. I have a lot to say about some other things (psychic powers...)
10) Vehicles: There are some good and some bad changes on these new rules.
ReplyDeleteI like the changes to movement and shooting, the snap fire rules for movement, that they took away the defensive weapon rules, Fast skimmers are truly fast now as they can cover potentially something like 30”, and the changes to squadron rules.
I don’t like hull points, the effect of stunned and shaken results on passengers, all of the disembarkation rules, and the change to chart modifiers for AP2 and AP1 weapons.
Overall I think it makes regular vehicles (by which I mean AV 10-12) much weaker while heavy vehicles remain pretty much the same as heavy vehicles received the extra hull point on top of their higher AV. I say this because of the glancing taking out hull points where multi shot weapons tend to be lower strength and thus able to hurt the regular vehicles much more reliably than the single shot, high strength weapons. This edition really seems to focus on volume of fire instead of quality of fire.
As an example take a heavy weapons team of autocannons shooting at a Falcon Grav Tank’s front armor. They should be able to take it down in at least 2 turns with the bring it down order because that is 6 shots, 5 hits (rounded up), and at least 2 glances. So that is nearly a 200 point model that lasts two turns and was lost to a unit that costs way less than half of that.
On a personal not I am going to have to completely rework my main eldar list because of the disembarkation rules. I don’t understand the point of jumping out then standing in place with their thumbs up their asses for a turn just to get shot during the opposing players turn then get shot in the overwatch when I try to assault in the next turn but lose the distance and not be able to make it so I get shot in the next turn. Fun.
11) Flying abilities: I assume you are talking about flying monstrous creatures and in that case they have gotten a lot better with the increased move and the vectored strike attack not being able to be effectively shot at before assaults. Very scary stuff.
12) Flyers: Like them but don't love 'em. Especially now while very few people have skyfire units but as more new codices are put out more units will gain skyfire units and flyers will only be average. I can see it now that the next space marine codex is going to include a new rule called “and they shall know no limits” which will allow space marines to take a bounding leap to assault zooming flyers.
Flyers will be very difficult to maneuver using zoom though with the limits to turning. Outflanking is a good thing to have with these things. 2 things that are not what the seem:
(A) Evade is not as useful as it sounds for flyers without bombs because what is the good of saving the flyer if you can't hit anything when you shoot next turn.. For a flyer with bombs its great because you don't need to roll to hit. (B) On going reserves will be huge benefit sometimes if you get out of position, need to reposition quickly, or are being chased by multiple enemy flyers.
Regarding Difficult Terrain... maybe I'm missing something too, rolling 3 dice and taking the lesser of the two puts you at a statistical disadvantage when compared to only rolling 2 dice. Math was never my strong subject but its the extra variable (3rd dice) with the potential of rolling lower which is the disadvantage. Yes?
ReplyDeleteDo you want to move all of your comments to a post of its own? I will not be able to come close to your level of analysis with the time I have available.
No you are right it does marginally reduce the average charge range by about an inch. It does this because it increases the number of low outcomes and decreases the number of chances for rolling higher outcomes.
ReplyDelete